Why Are People Leaving Upstate New York?
In recent years residents of New York State have been moving elsewhere more than any other state in the U.S. Here’s the top 4 reasons why people are leaving New York.
by Chris Clemens
In December, a report dropped with news that the population in New York is declining. The U.S. Census Bureau found that between July 2017 and July 2018, just over 48,000 people left to live elsewhere. To add insult to injury, the majority of those people were from Upstate New York. While New York was one of nine states to experience a decrease in population, many other states enjoyed an increase.
Rochester News Channel 8 WROC reached out for my thoughts on the report. You can watch the two-minute clip here. I wanted a chance to really delve deeper into my thoughts on the subject so I thought I’d lay them out here.
To make this discussion even more important for me, I saw a lot of comments on social media that really bothered me. Like, really bothered me. One person said, “There’s nothing here!”
“Nothing”!?
At first that comment bothered me because I knew it was factually incorrect. Then, I felt really bad about it. Nearly every day of the last 9 or so years I’ve been trying to tell people about the things in Upstate New York that are worth celebrating. How did I fail so miserably hard that someone thinks that there isn’t one single worthwhile thing in the state??
Moving past the depressing conclusion that I must suck at this job, I thought I’d attempt to tackle it head on and provide another angle.
Why Are People Leaving New York?
The first thing anyone needs to consider in answering this question, is how incredibly diverse New York State is.
Rochester, where I live, is nothing even close to Roscoe, New York in the Catskills. This is a medium-sized city and that’s a quiet mountain town. You can argue that it’s almost four hours away, and that’s valid. Instead, try comparing the city of Rochester to Sodus, which is close enough for a commuter to live and work. Sodus is farm town, and has been for over 100 years. Culturally, Rochester and Sodus are entirely different worlds.
Still think that’s too far away to make a comparison? I think you’re wrong, but I’ll come up with more. Rochester and Holley. Watertown and Sackets Harbor. Poughkeepsie and New Paltz. Corning and Bath. There’s examples all over of how different communities seem when compared to geographic neighbors.
Want to take this deeper? The state is so divided in terms of culture, that we all actually talk different. There’s a distinct Buffalo accent that separates Buffaloians from Syracuse folks. The Southern Tier actually has a unique accent that combines a few dialects. We even argue within the state whether or not to use “soda” or “pop”.
New York State has one of the least homogeneous cultures I’ve ever encountered while traveling in other states. So, to slap an answer on this question and say that it holds true for everyone couldn’t possibly be fair. Especially because some of these answers apply to some people and not at all to others. For instance…
The Weather
It’s safe to admit that not everyone loves our weather. I used to have a friend that said, “You grew up here! You have to like this weather!” and teased me for not wanting to do outdoor winter sports. She is emphatically wrong. Just because you were born here doesn’t mean you’re required to love snow. It would be silly to think otherwise. That’s like saying that if you’re born in Florida you have to enjoy golf. No, you don’t.
Buffalo gets a lake effect snow from Lake Erie, so its snow pattern is different than Binghamton’s. That doesn’t mean the Southern Tier doesn’t experience winter, but it’s a really different experience down there. Folks up in the Tug Hill just know that their winters will be measured by feet of snow–sometimes in a single day.
There’s a lot of people who feel the dreary, gray winters in New York are too long to handle. I get it. Other than building a roof, there ain’t a lot we can do to make it always sunny in Syracuse.
High Taxes
Some say that New York State has the highest taxes of any state in the nation. That’s factually incorrect. Though, that doesn’t mean New York has low taxes, it means you have to be careful about what numbers you’re comparing.
According to this report by Turbo Tax, the highest taxed state for income is California, coming in at 13.3%. New York is ninth on the list at 8.82%. You’re probably thinking, “Yeah, but what about property taxes, dummy!?” And, as a homeowner, I wondered the same. Luckily, that report also lists property taxes and New Jersey takes the blue ribbon. Louisiana is listed to have the lowest property taxes in the nation.
There’s other taxes that you need to consider, too. You buy stuff at stores, and that’s also taxed. New Yorkers pay a state and a local sales tax, so it’s tough to compare apples to apples, but this report balances out to 8.49%. You could move to Louisiana if you want. Remember that it’s the lowest property tax in the U.S.! But, you’ll pay 9.45% on all your purchases, which is nearly a whole point higher than New York.
People claim that they’re leaving New York because they don’t like the high taxes and again, that’s totally fair. But, guess why I’ve been picking on Louisiana? That U.S Census Bureau report states that Louisiana’s population is also decreasing. Lowering taxes doesn’t automatically mean people will stick around.
Economy, and Jobs
One of the most common reasons that people give for either moving out of New York State, or wanting to, is jobs. This one is tricky to fix for historical reasons.
Upstate New York has always fluctuated with the skill set that it takes to pull off whatever version of itself is currently trending. That sounds like we’re fickle, but in my opinion, it means we’re resilient.
The problem with “there’s no jobs” is that it too, is technically incorrect. The number of unemployed people in New York is the lowest it has been since 1988. In October and November 2018, New York State added over 6,000 jobs, a value of .1%. That happens to be the same exact rate as the rest of the nation. But, here’s why people claim that there are no jobs in New York.
Because, there’s no jobs in the type of work they do.
Rochester’s 20th century was built on the backs of Kodak, Xerox, and Bausch and Lomb. Blue collar workers who earned their living with a skill set in those companies found it tough to find jobs when those companies shriveled on the vine. Rochester is looking to pivot its industry and reinvent itself as an optics city. That’s awesome cause it means more jobs, right?! Sorta. It means more jobs for people who know stuff about optics, and Rochester is filled with people who know manufacturing cause that’s who we were most recently.
The same thing happened when the railroad replaced the lesser used Erie Canal in the later 19th century. People who had made fortunes and were experts in the field of packet boat shipping suddenly were saying “there’s no jobs”. Sure there were. Just, not on the canal.
Politics
One last area that people most often claim to be fed up with is the political arena of New York. I mentioned earlier that New York State is incredibly diverse, and for that reason, this one is super complex. And, also contentious.
The reality is, much of New York’s geography is very red. Looking only at the 2018 New York gubernatorial race, Republican Marc Molinaro won a whopping 47 of the state’s 62 counties. Looking at a map of colors, it would seem we’re a red state through and through and Molinaro would be our next Governor. But, because New York City’s population accounted for 47 percent of the Democratic incumbent Andrew Cuomo’s votes, he took the win. In fact, in over 40 years, we’ve only had one Republican Governor when George Pataki held office from 1996 through 2006.
Whether it’s taxes, gun laws, fracking, or another reason, you’ll find that a lot of the red counties in New York are super pissed about maintaining a Democratic lead in Albany. What’s really interesting about that common resentment, is that the 2018 election swung the New York State Senate to a blue majority for the first time in a long time. You’ll find a lot of Upstate folks in the red counties seeing red over that recent change.
Just how people joke “if so and so gets elected as President I’m moving to Canada!”, you’ll find people saying “I’m sick of the [expletive] [expletive] [expletive] who are running Albany!”
Other Stuff
There’s probably more, but these four reasons are the most commonly reported causes of a New Yorker wanting to jump ship for greener pastures.
Here’s the second part of this discussion where I lay out all the reasons that you can continue loving New York even if you hate snow, Democrats, or paying taxes!
Chris Clemens is the Founder/Publisher of Exploring Upstate. From his hometown in Rochester, he spends as much time as possible connecting with the history, culture, and places that make Upstate New York a land of discovery. Follow him on Twitter at @cpclemens
January 15, 2019 @ 11:40 am
The reason upstate New York hates NY government is because they don’t do anything for us. They say casinos are doing that. I haven’t noticed the difference myself. Upstate is totally ignored by Cuomo. Also Republicans in this state are frowned upon. Hence I bet a lot of the people leaving are Republicans.
November 16, 2021 @ 4:07 pm
We departed due to taxes and lack of opportunity, also not sure where you received your tax info?… Did you consider the “school tax” on top of the property it’s very deceptive…. $215k we paid $9k…. Sick…. Sales tax, state tax etc…. Destructive policies.
January 15, 2019 @ 6:34 pm
I left Rochester suburb for South Carolina. I loved all the seasons in upstate…though gotta say that the stretches of grey skies in winter could get to you. But it was taxes that made me move. Bought a house down here just about the same price as the one i left in Rochester. With the difference in the tax bill my wife and I went on a Carribean cruise and a two week trip to Europe.
January 16, 2019 @ 1:03 am
I live about 20mins away from Roscoe and about an hour or so from Binghamton. True, most of what you said is true. Where I live and you live are totally different but also communities are different. Where I live there maybe nothing if people want to think that but I see more diversity. Upstate or higher my friend would tell me its “wonder bread” up there or white people even though there’s different cultures in each area. I tend to think that upstate are more community oriented than where I live as well as the preparation of fast food and food products sold. I have hope for my area but still people sometimes can’t deal with this area. There is a form of pessimism and the feeling that change isn’t coming quick enough that people lose interest in the area. I don’t really care about politics as long as it doesn’t affect my wellbeing but I love where I was born and raised. If people don’t want a part of it then that’s fine and there will always be a home for whoever wants to live upstate or be welcomed back. As for weather, it will always be too hot or too cold and the winter will seem to feel as though trapped and devoured within a gray cloud of darkness but that is nothing compared to the beauty each area NYS has to offer and literally for people it might be too much to take.
January 16, 2019 @ 3:14 pm
Combined Sales and Income Taxes – NYS leads the way at 12.7% with CT at 12.6 and NJ 12.2. So while you are right….that NYS never comes in first for any single one tax (Property / Income / Sales) we always come in the top…and when you look at what we pay in total Sales / Income / Property – NYS is without doubt top three if not top 1. So downplaying taxes does a disservice. It hurts the people that live here and it hurts the companies….which further hurts people living here. On top of that we have tax free zones where our corrupt politicians are picking and choosing who gets those benefits thus picking the winners while everyone else has to pay taxes to support them. We also have Albany controlled by downstate….thus it’s downstate that is telling us how to live. They want to ship their trash and have take our clean water and have us produce their energy…but they want to dictate how we produce that energy.
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January 27, 2019 @ 8:02 am
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January 28, 2019 @ 12:16 am
Thanks for this article, Chris. It was informative. Nice to have hard facts to look at. Maybe the state should advertise its diversity more, telling people that we have a wide variety of types of communities to choose from, and consider that a good thing.
Of course resentment in politics doesn’t help anything. New, creative ideas are what unleash prosperity, which I think everyone wants. I know I am somewhat biased, but I feel problems of this nature needs to be looked at from a spiritual consciousness point of view, as well as the points of view you have listed in the article. On earth, conditions change, but our beliefs and attitudes have power to improve outcomes. This requires faith and patience, qualities not so evident in our 21st century mindset.
February 28, 2019 @ 2:06 pm
Whoever wrote this article has an agenda: “Aw, it it really so bad?” The answer: “Yes…it is.” People vote with their feet. At some point, New York will figure it out. But by then, New York will be the fifteenth most populous state in the nation, and my great-grandchildren will be approaching retirement. Good luck, NY!
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July 8, 2019 @ 6:41 pm
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July 26, 2019 @ 7:25 pm
All of the high paying manufacturing jobs are gone through all of central NY. Being replaced by low wage garbage jobs. The economy is shot and isn’t coming back anytime soon. The only hope we have is global warming driving people back up here
August 4, 2019 @ 4:12 am
Every state, County, city, has its ups and downs. Sometimes it’s due season and or weather; not to mention temperatures. Not one is gonna be perfect. You can live in a warmer state, but then you’re gonna have to deal with a different climate. Personally, I’d love to have 6 months of warm weather and 6 months of cold.
August 27, 2019 @ 8:28 pm
While I’ve lived in eastern Broome County for over a year while being from Raleigh NC, NY has many great things about it. For example, the various small town communities, pride in agriculture, tough, hardworking hands on kind of people. So many people I know here can work on a car, build a deck, do plumbing, etc etc..the climate produces a tough mentality and the work here is tough if you want to survive, but it produces some great people. Admirable…the negatives aren’t many but they’re big. The bighest being the weather, there are better options, of you want lush green summers with rolling hills or maintains the Southern Appalachians has all of that, except summer starts a month earlier and ends a month later. Winters aren’t as harsh and there isn’t a mud season. No black fly season. Yes, the South has more bugs but the flies/mosquitoes up here are worse. More days of sun, fewer clouds. Politics up here are ridiculous. You have a city telling country people what to do. Gas prices here suck. Roads here suck. Rust sucks. People are clearly leaving, you see homes for sale all over cities like Binghamton. Vacant buildings are rampant. These are just some observations Ive seen while being in the Southern Tier for a year having never been here prior. Goodluck NY
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October 13, 2019 @ 3:49 pm
Can’t do anything about the weather in NY but it’s still a beautiful area! Or you can deal with hurricanes and bugs in the south or trade a harsh winter for an even harsher five month long AZ summer which is what I have done. Honestly, I hate the weather here too. I still miss NY, but I miss the old New York, the way it used to be! It breaks my heart to come back to boarded up houses in Binghamton and observe the steady decline on all levels. Lots of bad political decisions and those in charge, just not doing enough to keep “good” jobs in the area. IBM, Link Aviation…gone. Power company allowed acquisition by a foreign country moves company headquarters out of area. Some things you can control and some you can’t, i.e. death of the Malls/brick & mortar stores. Life goes in cycles and the Technological Era is the new industrial revolution. New York, once a leader has now fallen so far behind. The money needs to be funded to Upstate communities to fix their infrastructure and make the airport competitive like Elmira and Scranton……it can be done. There is so much more to NY than NYC. I sure don’t have the answers, just an observation but always have NY in my heart & head and keep hoping for a miracle to save what’s left and a thank you to those who try to do so.
November 10, 2019 @ 10:26 am
Too many upstate new yorkers are reactionary and blame other’s for things their own fault. Taxes are high partially because people choose to live in suburbs, which have higher property taxes than cities. Urban sprawl requires more money to pay for, and upkeep of, roads, sewers, power lines, fire services, etc…. than a more dense urban area requires. Decades of pushing car uae and a lack of investment in public transportation leads to more expenses for autos. Instead of dealing with the root of the problem, people react and blame high gas prices.
The “were not someplace else” attitude is self defeating. Upstate can never be Paris, or San Francisco, but we can be upstate New York. Rather than build that upstate, too many react, complain it isn’t what it was, and want something that can never be. How can you keep and attract the youth when they grew up hearing about the problems and being told their future can never be here.
There are many reasons to love, and hate, any place. Upstate will thrive or die upon the mindset of its inhabitants, too many which aren’t wanting it to shine because it would mean they would have to change themselves.
May 30, 2020 @ 7:19 pm
There are many states with urban sprawl without such high taxation. MN, AZ, CO – on a relative basis, most areas aren’t so harsh. Further, income taxes are incredibly high. Most of the money is going toward healthcare.
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December 30, 2019 @ 4:27 pm
Every contributer on this site that has a positive input for NY state needs to dig deep and find that honest person inside. You are lying to yourself and it’s what I find most disappointing about New York. People need to wake up. Those that complain need to unite with those that continually sugarcoat the situation and find a solution for central NY that doesn’t include Albany and NYC. Get over yourselves and do something! The state is a sham. You pay $7,000 in taxes for a $250K home? You actually still justify the amount of income and property(school) taxes you pay? I’ve lived in 7 different states on each coast and the Midwest, and after studying their laws and taxes along with adjacent states, NY state is only keeping you fiscally irresponsible and burdened for generations. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to sit along with my Grandparents and hear there living history of the use of state resources and manufacturing. By 1985, before I left NY after high school in 1987, I had already seen the light. As I imagine many of the thousands that leave every year since then have realized also (but you can use one year as an example to sugar coat something positive). As I return year after year to visit and speak to family, they comment on how many homes are turned to shady rentals because the folks can’t afford to purchase with there lack of income and the property taxes each year. I could go on and on, but if your still living in NY you’ve probably already given up. Just remember, when you’re looking for something positive to architect your future, make sure to reference the article writers comparison to the work force from during the fall of the Erie Canal and the positive changes you reaping now from that era.
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January 31, 2020 @ 9:48 pm
If I did not have my land I would leave New York State. There is too much government infringement on privacy. The population of the metropolitan areas are greater than the combined rural areas so we are dominated and out-voted by that majority that imposes unrealistic and selfish rules on the rural inhabitants. Taxes, especially property taxes, are so high that it is difficult to sell property at fair prices so people from other states do not wish to purchase property here. Legislators representing the high poplation (high vote) areas have no interest or concern for the rural residents.
February 1, 2020 @ 2:42 pm
Population drop in ny is high Taxes and Cuomo ridiculous laws that jeopardize citizens safety!!
November 13, 2022 @ 5:47 pm
If love to hear where people have moved that isn’t presently suffering the result of suburban sprawl from snowbirds driving up taxes.
Florida, The Carolinas, Georgia, Tennessee etc plus the midwest are suffering from take the money and run contractors building massive suburb developments. Where’s the infrastructure going to get the money? These alternatives are cheap now, but give it 5 years. Florida was already a victim of suburban sprawl on swampland.
The future of upstate New York depends on innovative technologies of which America severely lacks. If a city adopted a manufacturing sector of green energy that is applied to the city itself as a showcase, they would set the price for the rest of the country. This includes a high-speed train system to and from these smaller cities in upstate New York. But we think backwards in this country while you’re a fly’s way ahead of us. Anybody who’s been there can tell you.
We have the raw goods, the infrastructure, and the workforces for these innovative industries. We just don’t have the impetus because capitalism likes to stay where it is.
April 19, 2020 @ 1:49 pm
Just try to get land as cheap as you’ll find in beautiful upstate NY.. Beautiful rolling hills, unspoiled by development.. I love NY State. Trick is you have to find a place to get away during a couple of the freezing cold months…that’s all ..haha
May 26, 2020 @ 1:50 pm
Upstate NY is a beautiful place. Great food and some great people.
But good luck looking for any “diversity” in the politics up here.
Tell the townies you vote Dem or Independent and they’ll key your car here.
June 24, 2020 @ 6:29 pm
One thing I didn’t see in the article is how hard it is to keep a small business going in Northern NY. This governor, like his father, seems to feel that every small business has the same resources as large corporations. Try deciphering some of the rules and regulations you need to comply with. At some point you’d need a team of lawyers just to figure it out. My family and I have been self employed in Massena (on the Canadian border) all our lives and it’s getting nearly impossible to keep up with the states regulations and taxes. Small business owners are calling it quits left and right and moving to other states. Some of them are friends whom I keep in contact with. It’s always the same…”You NEED to get out of NY! You won’t believe how much more business friendly (fill in the blank) is.” Now with Covid19 we likely won’t even open our seasonal business this year. We simply can’t meet the ridiculous requirements the governor is calling for and in many cases no clarity from the state or county as to what those requirements even are! Kill off enough small businesses and people leave.
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September 25, 2020 @ 11:57 pm
Property taxes in upstate NY are ridiculously high.
The roads and infrastructure suck
Schools are mediocre despite the high property taxes
The weather is crappy most days of the year
Food is NOT good …
The skiing sucks
Cycling on the roads means risking your life
Most cities are ugly and look like a post industrial urban decay zone
Locals are rude to outsiders…
March 12, 2021 @ 12:12 pm
Its not just the “high taxes”, its more that you don’t get as much for your money as in other states. I came here from WA which also has high taxes, but we also have functional public transit (a lot of upstate doesn’t even have public buses), drinkable tap water, properly maintained roads etc. Just the sheer amount of rules and regulations on everything are overwhelming to someone used to living in the western USA, I can only imagine that makes a lot of people move.